# Lineup Time weirdness **URL:** \ **Category:** Rules (Public Read-Only)\ **Tags:** rules\ **Created:** [January 7, 2025, 7:28am UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298 "2025-01-07T07:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![speedy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/speedy/32/15_2.png) [@speedy](https://community.wftda.org/u/speedy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 7:28am UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/1 "2025-01-07T07:28:14Z")
When membership voted on the new rules last year, the proposal included a new Glossary entry for Lineup Time: > The time between the end of one Jam and the start of the next one. This includes any timeouts that happen between those two jams. The rules website now shows a different definition for this term: > The time where the period clock continues to run between the end of one Jam, and either until the start of the next Jam (when a maximum of 30 seconds have elapsed) or a timeout is called, whichever occurs first. There may only be one lineup time between two consecutive Jams, and the lineup time cannot be restarted if stopped for a timeout. This definition now excludes timeouts and also the time between the end of the timeout and the start of the next jam. While excluding these parts may look reasonable in isolation, it has some very weird effects when we look at the places where the term “Lineup Time” is used in the rules: - In section 1.3.2 Official Reviews: - In section 1.5.1 Overtime Jams: - In section 2.2.2, subsection Lead Eligibility: - The only other uses of “Lineup Time” are in the casebook and unaffected by the change. (NB: Defining the time between the end of the timeout and the start of the next jam as a separate Lineup Time would in each case give a meaning that aligns with common intuition.) Questions I have (@rules): - What is the purpose of this change? - Why was it made without a vote and without even telling membership it was made? - Are there any other changes between what was voted on and what is now on the website? ---
**Author:** ![REFlex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/reflex/32/185_2.png) [@REFlex](https://community.wftda.org/u/REFlex)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:48am UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/2 "2025-01-07T10:48:35Z")
It would be just easier to define that a regular Lineup-Time in between two jams is 30 seconds and any “Lineup-time” after a TO or OR is a maximum of 30 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![wishbonebreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/wishbonebreaker/32/75_2.png) [@wishbonebreaker](https://community.wftda.org/u/wishbonebreaker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/3 "2025-01-07T15:42:06Z")
If I don’t restart the lineup clock after a TO, doesn’t that eliminate any issue with the above? ---
**Author:** ![speedy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/speedy/32/15_2.png) [@speedy](https://community.wftda.org/u/speedy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/4 "2025-01-07T16:04:39Z")
How would it? Nothing in the individual rules or either version of the Glossary entry references a clock. The only thing that matters is that by defining the time between the end of the timeout and the start of the jam to no longer be “Lineup Time” all the quoted rules no longer apply to this time when they were clearly intended to do. ---
**Author:** ![dangermuffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@dangermuffin](https://community.wftda.org/u/dangermuffin)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/5 "2025-01-07T22:10:16Z")
IMO we should rephrase to, “The time between the end of one Jam and the start of the next one, not including time spent in Timeouts, Official Reviews, or Halftime.” ---
**Author:** ![REFlex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/reflex/32/185_2.png) [@REFlex](https://community.wftda.org/u/REFlex)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 10:58pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/6 "2025-01-07T22:58:41Z")
What if when a timout has ended the timeout-Clock would stop turn red and next to it would be the up-counting Post-Timeout clock, so that everybody is aware the the next jams starts in those 30 seconds. This would also help Officials who need to track the length of an Official review to catch the time. ![OOT-EOT](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/uploads/wftda/original/1X/c02516a3b9956a251c5a528910ce0e07f7f69e94.png) ---
**Author:** ![Twixxi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/twixxi/32/180_2.png) [@Twixxi](https://community.wftda.org/u/Twixxi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 11:27pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/7 "2025-01-07T23:27:54Z")
> [@REFlex](#): > > What if when a timout has ended the timeout-Clock would stop turn red and next to it would be the up-counting Post-Timeout clock, so that everybody is aware the the next jams starts in those 30 seconds. This would probably need discussing with those who maintain the scoreboard, which they like to happen via the github’s issues page. They seem to be the ones who decide the appearance of the scoreboard, unless you customise your own display. For those who haven’t seen it yet, the current version (released last night) does this when you click “end timeout”. The timeout clock keeps on ticking, and a “post-timeout” clock appears below and counts up. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/uploads/wftda/original/1X/89f154e0c930dd7a04fd8cb52f19b3214eb0b784.png) ---
**Author:** ![REFlex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/reflex/32/185_2.png) [@REFlex](https://community.wftda.org/u/REFlex)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/8 "2025-01-07T23:35:33Z")
That shouldn’t be a problem to adress. What need to be agreed on would be that procedures would allow this kind of information shown on the scoreboard. ---
**Author:** ![speedy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/speedy/32/15_2.png) [@speedy](https://community.wftda.org/u/speedy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2025, 12:30am UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/9 "2025-01-08T00:30:28Z")
> [@dangermuffin](#): > > IMO we should rephrase to, “The time between the end of one Jam and the start of the next one, not including time spent in Timeouts, Official Reviews, or Halftime.” This would still leave it ambiguous if the time before and after a timeout form a single instance of Lineup Time or two separate instances. But given that one of the possible interpretations makes way more intuitive sense than the other when applied to the rules in context, it should work in practice. Minor Note: As per 1.3 Official Reviews are a type of Timeout, so mentioning them explicitly is redundant. ---
**Author:** ![blind.io](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/community.wftda.org/blind.io/32/326_2.png) [@blind.io](https://community.wftda.org/u/blind.io)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/10 "2025-01-08T13:04:13Z")
Given the new glossary definition of Lineup Time, what are we now supposed to call the period of “up to 30 seconds” that can follow the end of a timeout? What word does Rules use to talk about it? ---
**Author:** ![dangermuffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@dangermuffin](https://community.wftda.org/u/dangermuffin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://community.wftda.org/t/lineup-time-weirdness/1298/11 "2025-04-03T18:17:40Z")
@darthbling does Rules have a statement about what went on here or what?