Proposal: Expanding yielding

It’s off-season and I’d like to be chaotic…

Would love to hear what people think about the following proposal/idea:

Relevant Terms
:pencil:Yielding: “A Skater who is required to Yield must allow any Skaters in their vicinity to assume a superior Relative Position. A Skater who allows a reasonable time for this to occur has Yielded, whether or not any Skaters took advantage of the opportunity.”

:pencil:Ceding: A Skater who enters the track from Out of Bounds in a way that results in an illegal gain of position may Cede that gain without penalty. In order to Cede, the Skater must immediately return fully Out of Bounds before re-entering the track. Straddling the track boundary is not sufficient to constitute Ceding.

:light_bulb: With reference to the rules change that allowed skaters to cede illegal position, I’d like to propose the following penalties be ‘‘yield-able’


  1. Multiplayers

  2. Impeding forearms (Scenario C4.1.2.G)

  3. Assisting forearms (Scenario C4.1.2.H)

    :light_bulb: My rationale is that the aforementioned penalties offer up momentary positional advantage. This advantage can be nullified with a yield.

    Examples:

    :radioactive: Red pivot and red blocker commit a multiplayer against yellow jammer. Penalty is called, both blockers must momentarily yield (as they would for a false start).

    :radioactive: Red pivot uses forearm illegally to block yellow jammer. Penalty is called, red pivot must momentarily yield (as they would for a false start).

    :radioactive: Yellow jammer keeps themselves in bounds against a legal block. Penalty is called, yellow jamer cedes position as they would for a track cut.

    This would require a different term I am sure, but I think this will better the game. It feels ridiculous to have to leave the track for 32-40 seconds for a nullifiable advantage that poses no safety issue for skaters.

    This would leave impact to an illegal target zone (excluding assisting forearms), impact with an illegal blocking zone (excluding impeding forearms) as penalizable in the regular sense.


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Just to be clear on what you mean, in gameplay terms. If you commit a multiplayer or impeding forearm, and you get called on it, you have to literally “let the opponent go”? Would your teammates be able to continue blocking, as they do if you get a penalty?

What is your thinking about “how to yield” in a scrum where there’s really nowhere to go?

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That’s what I was thinking. Speaking with some Boston officials, the issue they raised was that getting skaters to hear and recognize that they have committed a false start is difficult without a whistle.

I’d like for this to be called as other penalties are, so with a whistle, but the skater’s directive is to yield. I do think one’s teammates should still be able to block if say I committed an impeding forearm.

Another thought I had was that this would also result in an immediate forfeiture of your point. Both skaters take part in the multiplayer penalty, but typically only one is called for it. In this case, they both must yield and they both forfeit their point.

I basically want to emphasize position and points as game advantages.

To your second point. That is very fair, one idea would be in that case for the skater to cede. I understand this brings up an issue of OOB skating but I think that they need to remove themselves from play as if they were getting called on a penalty.

Thanks for engaging with this, I have been ruminating over it for a few years!

I have an initial, easily addressible concern: I don’t like delivering the normal penalty cue before the “undo”. That doesn’t happen with cedes (which have no communication pre-cede) or yields (which have a warning pre-yield, distinct from the penalty cue). Having a normal penalty cue which can be undone seems likely to create significant confusion, particularly with the NSOs. Without a second verbal cue to announce that the penalty “stuck” (ie wasnt yielded), there would be too many people pausing to see whether it was a real penalty this time.

The simplest fix would be to have a warning after the initial impact and before the “undo” window, which would be clearly distinct from the verbal cue denoting the penalty. Something like “Black 23, Yield”, which would be followed by “[tweet] Black 23, Forearms [swoop]” if they failed to yield the illegal advantage.

Now, my questions/concerns with the heart of the proposal.

  • There are many ways a block can have impact that aren’t gaining superior position, and I’m not sure how many of them can be undone. Examples include knocking someone down, knocking someone OOBs, and letting your Jammer get by.
  • There’s also the problem of “undoing” secondary consequences of impact. For example, if the Jammer hits my Multiplayer Block, is stopped, and jukes around to another gap, I can’t just let them by…the Jammer is already at a different place on the track in a different situation.
  • There is also the problem of bandwidth. A warning followed by tracking a potential yield occupies an official for a second or two in which it is difficult or impossible to track most other things. Some of the illegal contact you are describing is extremely common, and if impact/warn/yield becomes as common as cut/ceding currently is, the officials might spend a lot of their time and energy warning and monitoring these yields.

I will point out that Yielding a False Start already has many of these problems. Skaters often erroneously report to the box; if they don’t, an official must spend several of the most important seconds in a Jam watching a skater standing there. The only reason this isn’t a bigger problem is that False Starts are relatively rare.

That said, I’m certainly not trying to dismiss your idea entirely! I think allowing Cuts to be ceded was one of the best improvements to the quality of derby, and I am excited for any innovation in reducing the number of needless penalties.

As a counter-suggestion, I would prefer something closer to Ceding than to Yielding; that is, with no communication of any form. If a skater commits a penalty with impact that can be undone, there would be a window in which they could Cede that impact as long as their first derby action was to completely undo the impact. A successful Cede would lead to no penalty.

This has a few advantages over a framework with a warning.

  • Less communication creates less confusion and less delay. Instead of monitoring how the skater reacts to the warning (which could be several beats after the action), the official just has to monitor how they react to the action itself.
  • It creates more space for the official to monitor the impact and whether it was undone. They wouldn’t have to decide whether it was undo-able first; they could watch play unfold and make a call about whether it was successfully undone.

I would argue that this isn’t that different than how some officials already call penalties. I know of many refs (myself included) who will No Call a penalty if there is a brief superior position that is immediately undone. For example, if Jammer pulls themselves around an opponent for an instant but then immediately goes Out of Bounds, then I would argue that there was no Impact and thus should not be a penalty (assuming they didn’t get a point or something).

Formalizing a change like this and creating language around it would still be useful for education and consistency purposes. I would love to be able to say “The Jammer grabbed the Blocker and pulled themselves around, but immediately Ceded the advantage by going Out of Bounds and running back.”

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Okay yes! To your first point, I definitely defer to others on how to best potentially apply this in real gameplay. I feel like that idea makes sense to me in terms of how you would “warn” the skater.

I do feel that jammers who commit cuts should still be allowed to cede. It feels akin to when a ball switches possession when being hit out in basketball. But I can table this for now.

With respect to your bullet points:

  • Knocking an opponent down/OOB – I don’t know if this occurs due to an impeding forearm or multiplayer really. I identified these 3 penalties as those that “retain relative position” illegally.
  • The jammer’s secondary juke as a result of my multiplayer. I think that if I am warned, per your suggestion, I should be forced to stay put or bubble behind the jammer’s relative position to mitigate my illegal move. Also, the jammer now immediately has my point anyway. I don’t know if this would be hell for jam refs.
  • I get where you are coming from, but when I consider that officials currently track the trajectory of my exit to determine if it warrants a second penalty, it doesn’t feel like it would require any more effort than that.

With respect to your final paragraphs:

  • I almost want the skaters to fall away from the official’s visual field to help facilitate this.

Lowkey, I prefer ceding as well. I was just worried about hard-launching it. I guess my only concern is sometimes we (blockers) really have no idea we are committing an impeding forearm. A multiplayer I could expect some blockers to be able to identify and cede fast enough.

I do appreciate the move to negate unfair advantages, but the penalty volume, as it stands, feels like we only have one “fix” to a myriad of small problems. I think that the rules do a great job of identifying unsafe play, but we don’t have a good solution for “unfair” play. I am not trying to bring back minors (maybe I am, I never knew the pain of playing with them) but we do have a way to negate unfairness and while I know ceding position doesn’t undo a series of causal hits or something, for a jammer or for a defensive unit to move front/back with less opposing players “in-play”, I think it can go a long way.

Otherwise, I think if officials would accept skaters’ self-ceding then it is still a step in the right direction. I agree that you could be able to look at the net-advantage or net-outcome of a series of illegal actions followed by take-backs.

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Thinking a little more about this, I’m also just not sure that it really is apples-to-apples. That half a moment where someone could have gotten through if not for the illegal impediment doesn’t necessarily exist a moment later while that specific blocker yields, so I’m not sure it really ameliorates the illegal advantage. Thinking about how teams may make greater use of small illegal impediments if the disincentive drops significantly:

  • An intentional forearm stuck out between the Jammer and my teammate to “slide” or “crowbar” the jammer onto my teammate’s back and upper arm. Sure, I have to yield, but it doesn’t matter because the Jammer’s now fully controlled by my teammate.
  • Or with a Multiplayer, I do the grip, we stop the jammer, I have to yield so I move to the front side and disengaged while the other linked blocker goes chest-to-chest for a moment or two, and then I’m back, but in front, as the brace.
  • It doesn’t count towards my “seven” to foul out, so the volume would be unlimited right?
  • Together, this makes me worry that we’d see a LOT more of these illegal impediments, which could conversely mean a lot more need for officials to take their eyes off the rest of the action to verify the yielding.
  • And watching these mid-track mid-pack is a different ballgame than watching whether someone exits legally. A legal exit is usually in full view of many officials, including PLTs and PBTs, rather than for the single ref who calls the penalty (and is supposed to be watching the jammer) being the only ref who knows exactly what would constitute a yield.

But…the ceding option, could be made much more effective, since they really are removed from the action.

  • A penalty cue if followed by the directive “CEDE” (tweet, black four two, forearms, cede) would mean the skater would need to immediately exit the track and return in the rear as if they were coming back from the box.
  • “cede” could be heard by the OPRs which would be important to tell them who to cede to (everybody), since they can’t tell on their own the same way they can when someone touches out of bounds.
  • A lot of the practices etc. are already trained-up for cuts, so we could probably hit the ground running.

I think that the ceding option, where they must leave the track completely and come in at the back, would be a very interesting conceptual rules change to beta-test.

3 Likes

Muffin that is fair and I think that is why I want blockers to lose their point. If position is the key to this game, my position protects my point. Any illegal action sends me to the box (as of now), where I can no longer protect my point. I don’t want to see the game become a breeding ground for these illegal actions, only to have a more coherent system that properly balances the scales.

In the case of the multiplayer block, I think both parties must yield/cede. They were both culpable of the illegal retainment of position.

I can work on writing up a beta test proposal and can share here using the CEDE, do you think it necessary to say the exact penalty committed?

I had originally wanted it to be a cede because that way even if it at the back of engagement zone, it still removes them from play.

Thank you both!!!

If skater A grabs their teammate B who is just standing there and an opponent challenges the link B has not done anything illegal.

But on the core of the proposal: I do share the concern about secondary consequences. An even more clear example might be an impeding forearm or multiplayer that prevents an opponent from running back your jammer. That one is even already yielded.

And if we try to regulate those secondary impacts things will quickly get very fiddly. The only way this could be handled would be to move away from defining impact as specific items like a gained position and more towards an abstract “the team gained a gameplay advantage”. In that case yielding/ceding can be easily incorporated by saying a penalty can be avoided if the illegally gained gameplay advantage (for the team as a whole) is immediately and fully given up. (And if that’s not possible then the penalty can’t be avoided.)

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I think “lose their point” is necessarily built into CEDE option, because to cede you have to go behind the person you illegally blocked. So if it’s the jammer, you have to give up your point naturally when you go behind them to cede. So that is no additional difficulty to officiate.

But, I think it would not be a very good idea to try to penalize both people in a multiplayer because often there is really just one person doing the grasping or making the illegal wall, while their opponent is just “getting grabbed.” In a case where there is definitely two people to blame, there is still only one “unit” of impact, and it is a core principle to penalize illegal play based on impact.

I do think it is necessary to say the penalty committed. That’s the whole reason we have verbal cues and track codes. The person who did the bad thing deserves to know what it was, especially so it can be official-reviewed. And the person who had it done to them, needs to know that the thing that was done was “caught,” for the same reason.

My final note is just that Membership has voted down every movement to complicate the penalization system. They voted against separating technical vs physical infractions, they voted to get rid of minor penalties, and so one could say that we’ve seen evidence that people do not want additional tools that add complexity to the ruleset. That is a future problem but, it is worth thinking about whether the added complexity here points us down a path.

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I hear you both that my idea to make both blockers cede the multiplayer may be too punitive. However, I think for me as a blocker, I would rather us both have to cede for let’s say a total of 3-4 seconds as opposed to one of us sent to the box and off the track for more than 30 seconds. I can have that be ambiguous in my proposal

I think my only reason to have it just be called a cede was to reduce the officiating burden, but I concede to the cues already being known and in use.

To your final point, Muffin, I do think you are right that there has been a move away from classified penalties. However, I believe that since this kind of proposal benefits both jammers and blockers and does not promote unsafe play, a strong argument can be made.

I feel like moving away from minors/majors, etc. forced the rules to swell to a domineering size. What bothers me is that I can’t reasonably anticipate watching any derby game, at any level, where penalties won’t be called. I think it should be a problem to get a penalty; it should become a rarity, but right now, they feel like the third team on the track.

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I couldn’t love your alternative more. The “you know what you did” cede would be fantastic! I understood it perfectly from your explanation.

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Hi all :slight_smile:

I have written a beta test proposal here if you have the chance/bandwidth to take a look.

Otherwise, I guess I will move forward with the next official step, which I definitely know…

I see an issue in the first scenario: what if the person who now has to cede was being held back as a goat by the other team, who was exercising strategic control of the pack? Having them cede might destroy the pack, or otherwise make the other team lose that strategic advantage that they worked so hard on. This is one reason why we penalise. The proposed rule change rewards illegal action in that situation, that is not a good property.

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By changing the definition of Cede, I believe you have unintentionally changed the way that a Cut is to be Ceded. Under this proposed definition, a Skater who cuts “must cede to all players in active gameplay by re-entering behind the engagement zone”, rather than just those who have superior position.

I would suggest instead using Yield, which would also require changing Yield’s current definition. This is currently used for False Starts, but they are rarer and the verbal cue is a nice short one so better for the proposed purpose.

Unless we also wish to change how False Starts are dealt with, the terminology around False Starts could then change to “False starting skaters are required to Relinquish Position to all other Skaters in the immediate vicinity” and put the old definition of Yield into a new Glossary entry for Relinquish Position. This is wordier, but I think that’s fine as we rarely need to say it out loud

I do think it’s important to have separate terminology for all three to reduce confusion. I believe that’s why Yield and Cede were split in the first place.

I would also say “required” instead of “mandated” as this is in line with current phrasing in the rest of the rules.

Additionally I’d suggest putting Failure to Cede (or now, Failure to Yield) penalty under Illegal Position alongside the existing Failure to Reform, Failure to Return, and Failure to Yield.

Maybe there’s a middle ground here. Let’s stop removing Jammers when they aren’t being unsafe. This forearm is easily able to be yielded, likewise for other similar penalties. We could workshop and see issues with how we call these with a much more focused scale before advancing it to Blockers. It might help us understand how Blockers could yield/cede.

Also - just pointing out that point is not intrinsically tied to ceding or yielding if the order is given but the jam ends before it can be done.

I think this could be treated in the same way that a blocker who sustains a penalty when they are the only one on the track is. They have to wait to report so in the same way, this blocker may wait to cede. I hear your point but I feel like this change can have more benefit than harm to the game in general.

Yes! So I did originally use yield but then with feedback changed it to cede. I am happy to change it back to yield as well, or use a third term, “reset”? I don’t know.

I am going to incorporate your other notes into the document now.

I understand this as well, but I don’t love separating contact by skate role if that makes sense?

I am going to revisit the document now, I had random PARALYSIS I apologize and appreciate everyone who is engaging with this.

If we do feel like the document is updated well eventually, do I just start beta testing, ask others too?

Contact and impact would be the same, regardless of role though, right? It’s just how we would account for rectifying advantage (penalizing) that changes based on role. Which has precedent - we don’t spring an opposing Blocker from the penalty box when someone from the other team is penalized.

Traditionally Beta Testing would be run through the Rules Committee, if the Committee all agreed in a meeting to support and organize that. But there’s nothing stopping any league from running their home league or a practice however they want to. The more games/practices the better though, as it usually takes at least one full one just for everyone to wrap their heads around how it is working on skates.